Thread: Strop mid-shave?

I did the 2 razor technique today. Very nice.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I posted that only because the article indicates that the the reason a blade needs to be sharpened is apparently because of the corrosion that develops along the edge due to moisture, and not because the beard hair mis-shapes the edge of the razor therefore requiring restraightening on the strop (please correct me if I misunderstood what I skimmed in the article...) So if you were to believe the article, the damage done by the shaving itself is only due to the moisture on your face, and I wonder if any significant amount of rust is actually accumulating on the razor edge before your second or third passes during the shave. (Which it must, if corrosion is the primary factor in dulling the razor. It also makes me wonder how many faces one could shave before needing to strop again - what do the barbers say?)

I've also thought that a more efficient shaving stroke would probably prolong the trueness of the razor's edge, but I don't have any direct evidence to support my fledgling theory. Does anyone find it necessary to strop midshave with a stainless steel razor? Do really soft steels require more frequent stropping than hard steels or is it only a matter of rust resistance? I don't know but I'm sure someone can help us find out

Then again there are those who will say a mach 3 lasts 30 shaves, and others who say it only lasts 3 shaves.

I disagree somewhat with the corrosion theory. Case in point. When skinning a deer, it goes much more smoothly and efficiently if you have several sharp knives. If you only have one, it will dull and require resharpening. Look at an abbatoir. They resharpen their knives several times per day. Even when preparing a meal, I notice a significant dulling in the edge of my chef's knife.

Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

I disagree somewhat with the corrosion theory.

It could be that cutting dry hair, skin, or at a high angle with greater pressure will dull the edge faster than corrosion could. Quick was quick to note that, and maybe the photographs from that article are not enough to tell the whole story!

Originally Posted by Quick

Yes, I've read that. That addresses the damage done to an edge by shaving and the effectiveness in repairing that damage by stropping. ...and then I forgot about it in the context of this thread (what can I say I'm old with a weak mind).

No doubt that shaving damages/dulls the edge. No doubt that a strop can repair that damage to some extent (or damage it). But the thread is about stropping mid shave. Some people seem to experience a marked effect and others don't feel it's significant enough to strop mid shave. In the article I believe they showed damage (and the subsequent repair by stropping) after 4 shaves of a "tough" beard.

The implication was that they shaved 4 times and then stropped once. Surely the opinions in this thread are subjective and different razors in different states of prep with different abilities to hold an edge were used, but I'm guessing most here use decent razors all in a decent state. Everyone agrees that stropping between shaves is necessary and most feel it's sufficient. Surely there is some damage from a single shaving stroke but probably not enough to warrant stropping by anyone's measure.

So... I was speculating that shaving technique/angle may be the next most significant factor in explaining why some feel the need to strop mid shave and others don't. Maybe 2 or 3 (or more) times the damage is done when shaving at a 40* angle than shaving the same beard at a 15* angle.

An interesting point. Let's look at it like this: Skinning an animal versus cutting meat and separating joints. The knife used to skin an animal should be very keen, and it is used at a very low angle, let's say 10-20 degrees. The knife used to cut meat and dejoint is also very sharp, but uses a higher angle of grind, so that it will not get quite as keen, but still be very sharp. Sacrificing that extra fine edge for durability because it is used at a 90 degree angle. Now, that being said, let's look at shaving. What is the angle of a straight? I know I shave at about a 30 degree angle. This should lead to having a very low grind angle. That grind angle is very keen, but also very thin. That means it is susceptible to damage much easier than a razor with a higher grind angle, but it also provides a superior shave. The strop will correct these defects in a raor with a very low grind angle, because there isn't as much metal to turn. Does this make sense?

Well, they said something to the effect that "it's known" that the main cause of edge degradation is due to corrosion when compared to shaving but they (apparently) didn't look at that for the study.

Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

An interesting point. Let's look at it like this: Skinning an animal versus cutting meat and separating joints. The knife used to skin an animal should be very keen, and it is used at a very low angle, let's say 10-20 degrees. The knife used to cut meat and dejoint is also very sharp, but uses a higher angle of grind, so that it will not get quite as keen, but still be very sharp. Sacrificing that extra fine edge for durability because it is used at a 90 degree angle. Now, that being said, let's look at shaving. What is the angle of a straight? I know I shave at about a 30 degree angle. This should lead to having a very low grind angle. That grind angle is very keen, but also very thin. That means it is susceptible to damage much easier than a razor with a higher grind angle, but it also provides a superior shave. The strop will correct these defects in a raor with a very low grind angle, because there isn't as much metal to turn. Does this make sense?

Ummm, I think that would be a separate issue altogether but may account for some of the difference in degradation during a shave between people/razors/etc. It would seem that one edge angle could be better suited to a particular shaving angle than a different edge angle. Different variable and maybe different issue.

Let's assume that everyone sets their bevel with the spine flat on the stone and lets also assume that spines are designed to create a specific bevel (roughly the same for every razor). Haha, yet another subject but just to control the variables...

Some people on this thread commented that stropping mid shave made a significant difference for them and others commented that it didn't make so much of a difference. To discuss that without a controlled experiment we'll have to make assumptions on the other variables.

My speculation is that shave angle (given everything else is constant) would be a major contributor (if not THE major contributor) to increased edge degradation during a shave.

Other related issues (in the context of a single shave, and correction to the extent achievable by stropping):
* Is there a significant difference between regular carbon and stainless steel?
* Can bevel angle be optimized to a particular shave angle for a significant effect?
* Are spine widths specifically designed to effect a specific bevel angle when honing?

For everything you'd need some constraints (many subjective) like shave comfort, closeness, etc.

This would be a really good study for an engineering student. I did the two razor technique today, and I found it to be more comfortable than the usual. I believe it is the shaving that dulls the razor, and corrosion is a distant second. Certainly, a blade dulls by cutting things.

Originally Posted by Ditch Doc

This would be a really good study for an engineering student. I did the two razor technique today, and I found it to be more comfortable than the usual. I believe it is the shaving that dulls the razor, and corrosion is a distant second. Certainly, a blade dulls by cutting things.

That may well be true for the population here. Many/most meticulously dry and clean/oil tiheir blades regularly. I suspect that back when shaving with a straight was more prevalent the majority of people stropped, shaved, and tossed the razor in the medicine cabinet after running it under the tap and maybe shaking it.

What I get from the article is the edge is damaged: By corrosion and distortion. The strop cleans the corrosion and realigns the the bent edge. I feel that the razor has let me down if it cannot complete a shave without needing to be stropped.

On the few occasions I have tried mid shave strop. it helped. I assume it is misalignment via first pass. Could be angle, face wire, edge too thin...

Realistically I bet all my shaves would be improved by doing it. I just don't want too, manage without it. It can be nice but not necessary. I also shave directly off the hone and sometimes skip a stropping to get a better feel for whats happening in the invisible world of sharp. But I have never stopped stropping all together to see how long a given razor will go.

if you're thinking you may need to grow a gotee and stropping helps_ god speed