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  1. #1
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    Default low end vs high end razors

    i have a classic black 5/8 DOVO 1/2 hollow. when i browsed through all the razors, i thought i was getting a good deal since i dont care too much (at least for now) about handles. i just wanted a real good razor. but i guess now i understand that i really just scammed myself out of $70, actually $90 because i added the pre-honing option, and should of went with something along the $250 range to get a good shave

    i dont feel like i get good shaves at all. it hangs on ATG. i even tried shaving WTG with my mach3 which is closer than what i would get with the straight now because of my angle/technique issues. even then, it hanged just the same. at this point, the razor might not be sharp so its being sent back to lynn to see if it needs to be re-honed. i do strop before each shave and it feels sharp. if it comes back sharp and it hangs, or it hangs after 2 WTG passes (1 being my m3), then ill toss this razor. i dont make shelf space for nonsense. life's too short for that. on the other hand, if a new razor like i guess maybe a bismarck 5/8 spike point or one of the higher ends does this as well, i guess ill be selling all my stuff because i have no problems with my mach3 shaves. ill chalk it up to the fact that its not meant for my face and thats it. i know it takes time to get real good with it but there should be improvement.
    Last edited by OldFashioned; 06-01-2008 at 05:38 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFashioned View Post
    i have a classic black 5/8 DOVO 1/2 hollow. when i browsed through all the razors, i thought i was getting a good deal since i dont care too much (at least for now) about handles. i just wanted a real good razor. but i guess now i understand that i really just scammed myself out of $70, actually $90 because i added the pre-honing option, and should of went with something along the $250 range to get a good shave

    i dont feel like i get good shaves at all. it hangs on ATG. i even tried shaving WTG with my mach3 which is closer than what i would get with the straight now because of my angle/technique issues. even then, it hanged just the same. at this point, the razor might not be sharp so its being sent back to lynn to see if it needs to be re-honed. i do strop before each shave and it feels sharp. if it comes back sharp and it hangs, or it hangs after 2 WTG passes (1 being my m3), then ill toss this razor. i dont make shelf space for nonsense. life's too short for that. on the other hand, if a new razor like i guess maybe a bismarck 5/8 spike point or one of the higher ends does this as well, i guess ill be selling all my stuff because i have no problems with my mach3 shaves. ill chalk it up to the fact that its not meant for my face and thats it. i know it takes time to get real good with it but there should be improvement.
    I would think you are having trouble with technique. I do not know how long you have been using straights but ATG is the very last thing most of us do in the shaving process. There are XTG passes before the ATG. If you are fairly new at this you should not do any ATG passes till you have the technique to support it. With some razors ATG is just not necessary. I have a Genco that I do not do the ATG pass because it is not needed. Straight have a pretty steep learning curve, so it is up to you to decide if you want to take the time and effort.


    Just a though
    Richard

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    I definitely do otherwise I would not have purchased the straight or the TM 3" artisan strop. But I recently found out there is a quality issue with razors. One guy on here even mentioned out of 100 razors he's tried, only a handful actually worked for him. thats a bit too much money for me to experiment with. basically my question is, how much better is the quality of the higher end razors than the lower end like the one i bought?

    Quote Originally Posted by riooso View Post
    I would think you are having trouble with technique. I do not know how long you have been using straights but ATG is the very last thing most of us do in the shaving process. There are XTG passes before the ATG. If you are fairly new at this you should not do any ATG passes till you have the technique to support it. With some razors ATG is just not necessary. I have a Genco that I do not do the ATG pass because it is not needed. Straight have a pretty steep learning curve, so it is up to you to decide if you want to take the time and effort.


    Just a though
    Richard

  4. #4
    Pogonotomy rules majurey's Avatar
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    Sometimes there can be quality issues with razors, but I wouldn't say that was the norm. My own experience has been good. From a $13 Wapienica blade on ebay, to a $1300 custom Maestro Livi, they've all been good. It took me a little over 6 months to start getting consistently good, close, irritation-free shaves, and about that time to learn how to maintain and hone my razors myself to a satisfactory degree.

    Stick with it. Learning this old art takes time and requires patience. As for low end vs high end... let's just say that my $13 ebay special shaves every bit as well as my Dovo Bismarck, and is actually easier to hone.

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  6. #5
    Previously lost, now "Pasturized" kaptain_zero's Avatar
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    I guess we need to clear some basics up.... First off, a straight is only as sharp as the honer has honed it. I have a $10 well used flea market purchased razor that shaves just as well as any other razor I have if I hone it properly and use it properly. Modern steels are harder and tougher than vintage steels... both shave equally well when honed properly. The higher priced modern steel razors will typically be a bit harder to hone to get them to their ultimate best but they will reward you with a longer lasting edge (but not necessarily a better shaving edge).

    A fresh modern cartridge razor such as the Mach 3 with all it's coating etc. will always tug less than a traditional straight razor no matter how well it's been honed.

    A single pass with a multi bladed cartridge will normally be closer than a straights single pass due to the principle of hysteresis.

    A modern cartridge razor can only shave as well as the designer designed it to do.

    A vintage style straight can only shave as well as the shaver can manipulate it.

    Modern cartridge razors and vintage DE safety razors have very thin blades which for some gents results in a harsh and irritating shave.

    Straight razors and some of the older style hollow ground bladed safety razors such as the Rolls etc. have stiffer blades that resist deformation during the shave and give those who find the modern thin bladed razors uncomfortable a smooth, clean shave.

    The increased tugging most experience when using traditional straights is not irritating, which is unlike the tugging sometimes felt with the thin bladed cartridge and safety razors where the blade actually deforms during the tugging and irritates the skin.

    If you are asking "Can I buy my way to a better straight razor shave?" I would have to answer no. When it comes to the quality of a straight shave, it's 98% user and 2% hardware. While it is impossible for us to know if there is something wrong with your razor, most of the time there isn't a problem with the razor but rather with the technique and the expectation of the new user. I get a closer shave that is more comfortable for me than what I got from a DE but I do experience significantly more tugging during the shave. That said, the tugging is NOT uncomfortable... it's just there. The slight tugging I felt, in particular going ATG with a DE was downright painful in some areas on my neck! Some of us can go for weeks or even months without honing a blade... I can't get more than a weeks worth of shaves without having to tweak my edges.... not by much mind you, just a few strokes on a pasted strop does it for me most times.

    When gents purchase a $100 strop from Tony, it's not because it's going to give a far superior shave over a $50 strop, it's because it's going to be more enjoyable when doing the stropping. Shaving with a Maestro Livi original brings great pride and joy to the owner but it doesn't have any magical powers over that $50 vintage blade off Ebay. It might be slightly sharper and longer lasting but we're talking nuances.... not major differences. It's the same with shaving brushes... I have a $65 badger brush.. it's a terrific brush and the lather it creates is as good for shaving as the lather made by my $300 brush. I just don't enjoy using the cheap brush as much as my expensive one. I knew that the higher priced brush was not going to improve the technical part of my shave but it sure would improve my enjoyment of said shave if I bought it!

    So, in the end... if you're not able to get your Dovo to work for you, for whatever reason, don't think that a high end razor or for that matter a custom razor is going to solve your problems. There are differences between razors but it's not a day and night thing... it's very subtle and for me, an 1850's vintage straight shaves just as well as any of my modern razors. I'm waiting to receive a custom razor from Joe Chandler... I'm very excited about it and I'm hoping the modern steel in the blade will prove to be more durable than all my old vintage razors but to be honest, I don't think it will shave me any better than the shaves I get now from my current collection. I WILL enjoy shaving with it though, after all, I had a hand in deciding on just how it was going to look!


    Regards

    Christian
    "Aw nuts, now I can't remember what I forgot!" --- Kaptain "Champion of lost causes" Zero

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  8. #6
    Incendiary Enthusiast CDpyroNme's Avatar
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    Default blade angle and stropping

    I knew I was going to have to tell this story eventually, so here seems like as good a time as any. I ordered a "starter kit" from vintage blades with a Dovo 5/8"( the name of which I don't know), a Dovo strop, a 2.5-3 oz. cake of Col. Conk's shaving soap, a shaving mug, and Lynn's DVD. I also bought Lynn's honing for the extra $20. All together I spent $200 give or take and got a free styptic pencil out of the deal. After my first attempt at a straight shave I sent Lynn an e-mail all but crucifying the poor guy. Is this over-honed? Any chance you missed this one and it went from the "incoming" pile to the "outgoing" pile without being honed at all? Basically, "how is this your fault?" I'll make a sidenote here and mention that razors (at least from vintage blades) come with a sticker on the box that says "your razor has been professionally honed by Lynn Abrams, founder of StraightRazorPlace.com and does not need to be stropped before its first use." This last part in italics is total BS. No matter what any sticker says, strop your razor before shaving - at least 50 passes (there and back is one pass). On top of that, do it right.

    My first "shave" had a horrible angle and I hadn't stropped at all as per the god-forsaken sticker. I removed almost no hair and had therefore concluded the above reasons why it had to be Lynn's fault. I was also well-studied (both videos and text). The moral of this long-winded story is that I was failing on technique. Pre-shave ritual (hot towels, proper lather, pre-shave oil, etc.) was being over-looked or performed incorrectly. Stropping, though i hadn't done it, seemed like a no-brainer. It's not. Stropping is the single make-or-break process which puts people in your shoes. There is no quicker well-intentioned way to dull a blade than rolling it on a strop. Sure, you can open 30 FedEx boxes with one and dull the hell out of it, but in trying to shave properly, stropping is the downfall of most. Study well and you will succeed.

    My best shave to date was my second... It took me 90 minutes and 7-8 hot towel treatments, but I took my time, stropped slowly and efficiently, worked out my blade angle, and experimented very meticulously. In this regard, I am an exception. I picked it up on my second try and got BBS virtually across the board. This is rarely the case. All of these things stated, it can obviously be done and I assure you (as many others here will) that your M3 is garbage, both literally and figuratively. Don't give up. Shave small sections at a time and learn your pre-shave, blade angle, and stropping THOROUGHLY... Learn what works for you as far as pre-shave. Blade angle is different, only slightly, with each razor. Stropping properly is not easy. Accept these truths - embrace them. Be patient and learn to shave sections at a time, finishing with your M3 until you get the hang of it. Don't give up - you have a wealth of informative support at your fingertips RIGHT HERE...

    Take a moment to look through a thread located in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum entitled "lurking...'" as there is bound to be some useful info regarding the title of your thread there.

    Good night and good luck

    Adam
    Last edited by CDpyroNme; 06-01-2008 at 09:20 AM.

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  10. #7
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    I think I can give you a useful answer to your problem/question but first the disclaimer: I have been shaving with a straight on and off for 28 years, basically with two razors, a 5/8 Dovo stainless "41" and an inexpensive Ross 4/8 carbon steel. The problem is that I am completely self-taught because, starting out I didn't have the benefit of the vast knowledge accumulated here. That said, there are some razors that just can't hold an edge regardless of your stropping technique. My 5/8 Dovo stainless gives me great shaves but I have to touch it up on a barber's hone before every shave or it starts to tug, not cut well and irritate my face. The Ross holds an edge longer but, because I'm finicky, I never go longer than a week. The honemeisters will tell you that I'm wearing out the blade prematurely ... and they're probably right. However, my rationalization is that each one of us is responsible for our own face and if I want to wear our my razors because it's the only way I've found to always get a perfect shave, that's my business. As to your assumption that the answer is a $250 razor, I do not agree. You can get a good shave with just about any razor if you know how to treat it, and that's the difference between a straight and any other kind of razor. Anyway, here's what I would do if I were you. When the razor comes back honed by Lynn, strop it and shave with it. If you get a good shave the first time but it starts to degrade after that, you need to get a barber's hone and touch it up. If that helps you get a better shave, then you have a Dovo that can't hold an edge, like mine.

  11. #8
    Senior Member blabbermouth Kees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFashioned View Post
    I definitely do otherwise I would not have purchased the straight or the TM 3" artisan strop. But I recently found out there is a quality issue with razors. One guy on here even mentioned out of 100 razors he's tried, only a handful actually worked for him. thats a bit too much money for me to experiment with. basically my question is, how much better is the quality of the higher end razors than the lower end like the one i bought?
    I have the same. There are high quality razors I don't like or don't get on with. That should not be a problem. If you look after them well you can sell them again on the B/S/T forum. Remember that the razor you don't like may well be a razor someone else likes very much! Or just fancies trying.
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr.

  12. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFashioned View Post
    i have a classic black 5/8 DOVO 1/2 hollow. when i browsed through all the razors, i thought i was getting a good deal since i dont care too much (at least for now) about handles. i just wanted a real good razor. but i guess now i understand that i really just scammed myself out of $70, actually $90 because i added the pre-honing option, and should of went with something along the $250 range to get a good shave

    i dont feel like i get good shaves at all. it hangs on ATG. i even tried shaving WTG with my mach3 which is closer than what i would get with the straight now because of my angle/technique issues. even then, it hanged just the same. at this point, the razor might not be sharp so its being sent back to lynn to see if it needs to be re-honed. i do strop before each shave and it feels sharp. if it comes back sharp and it hangs, or it hangs after 2 WTG passes (1 being my m3), then ill toss this razor. i dont make shelf space for nonsense. life's too short for that. on the other hand, if a new razor like i guess maybe a bismarck 5/8 spike point or one of the higher ends does this as well, i guess ill be selling all my stuff because i have no problems with my mach3 shaves. ill chalk it up to the fact that its not meant for my face and thats it. i know it takes time to get real good with it but there should be improvement.
    Going ATG with any straight there is going to be more resistance than you are used to. Yes,you must make sure the razor is as sharp as possible. But as has been mentioned, the ATG is pretty tricky with a straight.

    I believe that you have just started with a straight?

    A straight is a tool that must be learned how to be used for it to really shine. It is not a tool that makes it easier to get a good shave (a M3 is designed to do that) it is a tool that will repay patience and attention to details with a satisfying shave par excelllance, but not at the beginning. It takes time and practice.

    You can go out and by a top of the line Gibson guitar, but if you don't study and practice and lern how to use it, you will never make beautiful music, and thus will toss that nice guitar out the window along with your Dovo.

    Keep at it if you are interesyed in shaving as a hobby/pastime. If you are just interested in a quick, close shave, a DE or M3 will do the job quite effectively.

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  14. #10
    JAS eTea, LLC netsurfr's Avatar
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    It may be useful at this point to relate a little of my experience.
    I found my grandfather's straight and had an overwhelming surge of nostalgia. So, it began... the journey.
    I started searching and reading on the Internet and found this group. I tried to shave with my grandfather's razor and gave up after a couple of passes on the cheeks. I just did not have the honing technique at the time. I ordered a prehoned razor from Classic and a strop from Tony. I started out just doing the cheeks to get used to the razor but found myself using too much pressure and giving myself some real irritation. I was only doing a WTG and XTG pass. Every day the shaves on the cheeks got worse despite stropping. I had some bad thoughts about the honing job that Classic had provided. It was only 6 weeks or so later that I was to finally discover that I was not using a light enough touch on the strop and was in fact rolling the edge on my blade. Boy, was I frustrated during the 6 weeks before I discovered that my own technique was the problem.
    I ordered a second razor that was a quarter hollow and had it honed too. At the same time, I sent out my first razor to get it rehoned. New discovery! My beard responded much better or my technique was much better suited to shaving with a quarter hollow vice a full hollow razor. I have since learned that my technique was the issue. Ah well, I was making progress. I was now able to navigate the razor over my whole face and I was not rolling the edge with my stropping. Shave was still not great and I still needed to clean up with a DE. But, I was determined! People did this for ages... it simply could not be that hard (ha, ha, ha).
    Well, I have to tell you that after five months I finally got an almost acceptable shave but still needed to clean up areas on the neck with a DE. I think that most folks are hesitant to tell the stories about taking a while to get the hang of it and especially after reading some of the posts where some folks pick it up on the first shave. I have now been shaving for about 18 months and can get a BBS shave over the whole face but I still don't shave ATG except for on the cheeks from time to time.
    It has been a long journey but it has been extremely worthwhile for me. There is a real satisfaction in being able to accomplish this art. I am still learning something new each time I shave about my technique and ways to improve it. I now shave with a variety of widths and grinds of razors. My favorites tend to be 6/8 or 7/8 with 1/4 or 1/2 hollow grind.
    Hope this is useful in understanding that straight shaving is a learning experience that can vary for different people and not just something you decide to do one day.

    If you are looking for a vintage razor that is in beautiful condition and will have some stunning scales on it you might want to check out Traveler. He sells blades with a full refund if not satisfied policy. In addition, he provides rehoning of the blades at any time you wish at no charge beyond the postage both ways. I purchased a razor from him that I absolutely love.

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