The science of pyramids?

[garythepenman]

Great thread everyone.

The pushing at 45deg using wet and dry to get an initial edge seems very sound to me, followed up by the x pattern.

Now a question. I find it hard to feel that I'm not tipping the tang down (or lifting for that matter) when doing the x pattern. If I use the lightest touch on the toe so as to feel that the blade is not lifting (forefinger in the ground part) is this OK. I do mean a very light touch just for sensory feedback, nothing else.

I also do not flip the razor over on it's spine, I lift it totally off the hone, turn, replace and carry on in the other direction. Anything wrong with this ?. I do ensure I lift and replace flat without the edge hitting first of course.

Comments welcome..please....

Gary

[xman]

If I use the lightest touch on the toe so as to feel that the blade is not lifting (forefinger in the ground part) is this OK. I do mean a very light touch just for sensory feedback, nothing else.

That is what Joe is advocating and there seems to be nothing wrong with it unless you are like me in which case it will stymie the achievement of an edge.

I also do not flip the razor over on it's spine, I lift it totally off the hone, turn, replace and carry on in the other direction. Anything wrong with this ?.

Nothing, as long as the edge rotate upward away from the hone and not down toward the hone.

X

[garythepenman]

Thanks X

Gary

[Joe Lerch]

But, if there is a curve (smile) to the edge, only small part in the middle of the blade will touch the hone. I have no intention explaining simple geometry to you. Here's a simple test: take your favorite WB Meatchopper, the one with large curve to the edge, lay it flat on the stone, and look at the edge carefully. The middle of the edge is touching the hone, but not the hell and toe.

Don't make any assumptions about my technical background. You might be surprized. But I guess you're just too smart for me, so do explain the geometry. But first I should tell you I have one of those new Fillie 7/8s that classic shaving is selling out, and it was cut with a pronounced smile, but guess what- the entire edge lies flat on a flat surface, except at the extreme ends (which would come into the plane after a little bit of honing). Frankly, this is what I expected to happen. But just to check I tried a few W&Bs with the curved spines and smiling edges. Their edges contact a flat surface entirely, but I did hone them some to restore them. But that was enoughto make the entire edge planar, without losing the smile. It's only when you cut the edge non-planar or make the smile too extreme that it won't touch a flat surface. I also checked at least 20 non-smiling razors, some restored by me, some new, and some honed by various honemeisters. Every edge contacted a flat surface along its entire length. Geometrically, an extreme curve will only contact a flat surface at its center, but none of the smiles were that extreme. As I said, with the new blade only the very ends didn't contact.

No german site advocates that. Norbert is honing with straight push, but diagonal motion on a small width hone, same thing as the X pattern move.

If you mean honing with the edge leading I agree, but they also don't get the benefit of the angled scratch lines, a minor one. I added that to simulate the x-pattern scratch lines, and like I said, you couldn't tell the difference. I'll bet on it.

The X pattern has not appered out of necesity, because the hones were narrow (nonsence, you think there was no way to make them bigger?) but it was the other way around, they were narrow to suit the X pattern honing style.

I did a bit of research and found nothing conclusive. If you have any definitive information, let me know. But I did find that there were only narrow hones (including those used for knives) until fairly recently, and of course the babrber hones had to be smallish and were narrow. Probably the wide hones were too expensive to make. I don't doubt that they were not impossible to make. Even today you pay a premium for a wide hone. The x-pattern is not such a big deal that hones would be made to accomodate it. The Germans, who hone straight across do not get the engled scratch lines and manage very well without it.

[Joe Lerch]

The pushing at 45deg using wet and dry to get an initial edge seems very sound to me, followed up by the x pattern.

Honestly, the angle doesn't make much sense when you're first creating the edge. It's purpose is to simulate the angled scratch lines of the x-pattern. When you're working with something like a 1000 grit, you're removing material, and there will be no remnant of those scratch lines when you're done. For example, Lynn recommends a honing circular pattern for fast material removal. That won't give you anything like the scratch lines you want to end up with. I would say don't worry about the angle until you're completing the edge on the 4K. THe sandpaper is a substitute for a coarse grit hone. There have been warnings that it has a very slight give and may cause some edge rounding.

Now a question. I find it hard to feel that I'm not tipping the tang down (or lifting for that matter) when doing the x pattern. If I use the lightest touch on the toe so as to feel that the blade is not lifting (forefinger in the ground part) is this OK. I do mean a very light touch just for sensory feedback, nothing else.

No problem there. You can even use the second hand as long as you don't affect the pressure. What I do with a narrow hone is put the index finget on the spine ore even on the flat side of the blade to make sure it's flat. He finger stays over the widthwise middle of the hone, and I slide the blade under it as I do the x-pattern.

I also do not flip the razor over on it's spine, I lift it totally off the hone, turn, replace and carry on in the other direction. Anything wrong with this ?. I do ensure I lift and replace flat without the edge hitting first of course.

The only problem there is a potential one. If the edge accidentally touches the hone as your turnning the blade, it can send you back to square one. Turnning over the spine is considered the preferred way. As you get better, you may move smoother and quicker. The slighttest inattention when you turn your way can have a disastrous result. If you're just starting out, it would be best to learn the preferred way.

[superfly]

I have no intention explaining simple geometry to you.

Don't make any assumptions about my technical background. You might be surprized. But I guess you're just too smart for me, so do explain the geometry.

Joe, I have reread my post, and see that I sounded bad and offensive. I apologize for that. Sometimes, sentances translated from my language to English don't sound right. What I ment was "I don't want to offend you by explaining simple geometry".

Here it is:

On the folowing pics is pictured a razor with curved edge, layed on, say, Norton 8000 hone. For the ease of seing things more clearly (literary, that is) the curve at the edge is exagerated. Remember, same thing happens when that curve is smaller. The modeling is done mathematicaly, so nothing is freehanded, or assumed. The model is lighted with real bouncing light, where light is pointed to the object, and then it's rays are traced bouncing of the objects to create physicaly accurate light. In other words, what you see is what you get in real life.

Pic1. Razor and stone. Here you start to see my point, but not very clear, so let's zoom in.


Pic2. Here it is more visible. Observe the shadow the razor is making on the stone. Now, the razor lays flat on the stone, like when honning. Notice how only the middle portion of the blade is toching the stone? Same thing happens in real life, only in different scale. That was what I was talking about.


Pic3. Tip section:


Pic4. Toe section:

[superfly]

New post, there are only 4 pics allowed in one msg...

Pic5. Isometric view at the toe section, front. You can see by what amount the toe is missing the hone:


Pic6. Same, tip:


Pic7. Razor and hone, different point of view...


Nenad

[randydance062449]

Superfly!

Absolutely outstanding graphic work! You have illustrated your point exceptionally well.

Good work,

[Joe Lerch]

Great presentation Superfly! I'm sure it will help everyone visualize this better.

I'm having trouble with this site again, so I'll make it short.

Your model also demonstrates what I said. The smile should not be too big. I would consider that a flaw, because it will cut your beard unevenly and can even cause nicks. Of all the smiling razors I checked, only the new Fillie had a smile that did not touch a flat surface over its entire length (see my message). It missed at the very ends, but with a small amount of honing (to come). It , too, will be planar.

If you wanted to keep an extreme smile, you could not do it with straight across honing. In fact you couldn't do it with a straight x-pattern. The more extreme the smile, the more you need to shift or scythe the blade to keep the bevel and spine bands a constant width. Or you could do it as the barber manual demonstrates by pressure variation. That requires a bit of skill to keep a nice smooth curve.

BTW, I did not invent the heel leading honing. I just discovered it for myself when I discovered why barbers were taught to produce angled scratch lines. Then I found that quite a few people on the shaving sites use it. It is a good way to take advantage of a wide hone, and it's an easy way to learn to hone evenly. Once you understand that and see how you can produce an even edge you can continue it or learn other techniques. I'll admit it's a little slower than straight across or the x-pattern. I find I don't use it that much anymore because I do my maintenance with barber hones or other narrow hones.

[Redwoood]

I am somewhat reluctant to add to this thread since a) I am a honing beginner and b) tempers are pretty heated up already , but here are my thoughts and I would like to know what more experienced people think about them:

- While Nenad's images look amazing, I believe they are not 100% accurate (at least not for a smile created through honing) because the spine seems to be of the same thickness throughout. I would assume that the spine should be thickest in the middle and tapering out towards heel and toe.

- I believe that the smile is a self-regulating mechanism. The more pronounced it is, the higher the tendency of the hone to take away the belly, and thus, reduce it. You would have to put in a lot of effort (maybe including lifting the spine) in order to create a very pronounced smile

- Once you start honing straight with an angle and heel leading, you cannot go back to simple straight honing because the heel portion of the spine would not hit the hone in the former and would subsequently lift the heel part of the edge in the latter.


Redwoood